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There were a couple of complaints about moderator decisions and also the attractivity of TalkGraphics as a community. So let us start a discussion about these things, in order to talk about the problems and improvement suggestions.
What are the problems in your eyes?
What displeases you at our forum?
What can be done better?
The more comments the better.
Remi
Just a couple of thoughts.
Of course moderators are human too, so we should expect no less or more than human behavior.
Alas one persons enthusiasm can be another persons aggression. Some new posters enthusiastic expression is often regarded as aggression by some members. Perhaps some more tolerance is warranted.
Years ago, some old-timers may remember, some op was asking inane questions and generally making inane remarks. I still do not know if it was a seriously inept person or a troll, but the responses by some members, that I had grown to respect, was atrocious and then result was a highly fragmented community. It did recover a while down the road.
Maybe if a moderator thinks a discussion is going nowhere they should ask and get an opinion before locking. Of course some threads are clearly out of hand and moderators should not hesitate to lock it.
Anyway moderators are appreciated, mostly.
adios
sunland
What is a problem and displeases me is when people second guess the moderators and whine about their decisions. I haven't been here for years as some have but I check this forum several times a day and every time I've seen a moderator do something it has made sense to me. I spent 12 years in Yahoo chat which is a mean hateful chaotic place. Yahoo won't take any action unless they can get sued, so the place is a snake pit. This forum is like a paradise compared to that and I will support what judgment calls they make. There are countless forums in cyberspace, if people have a problem with this one they can always find another one. Nuff sed.
There's very little wrong with the moderation here. Sometimes I'm left wondering why some threads are pulled, but that's a very rare case indeed. Thumbs-up guys.
Hi,
I think that the name "Talk Graphics" serves the forum well.
You really can talk and debate here,on so many other fora you must stay On Topic and you cannot discuss to make things clearer to other members/viewers.
Rarely some topics get closed by the mods,but these are or spam or somebody is getting to personal and/or leaves the subject to much.
Although,like other fora,it's getting a p**sing contest sometimes,but hey there are more roads that lead to Rome,
The more solutions or ways to achieve the goal,the better.
As long as somebody isn't pushing or dictating his or her opinion.
At least I find it a refreshing forum that i like to visit much.
Hans
I don´t contribute very much here, mostly because I´m still learning the program. My experience has been very good, and I always look forward to seeing everyone´s work. The challenges are interesting, and I read everything. As far as the occasional thread where tempers seem to flare--I read them too, even though I often have no idea what they´re talking about :rolleyes:
I´d say all in all there is little to change here. And I´ll second the comment made above about many forums being "snake pits."
Just keep doing what you´re doing, and let the occasional "p*ssing contest" wear itself out.
Thanks to all the moderators for their time and their help--but then you moderators only do it for the money, right? :D
I appreciate the moderators here, very much. There is a standard to be met, and that is to respect others; no arrogance or condescension. I think anyone can step over the line once in a while, not meaning. I brief reminder to that individual will suffice is he/she is responsive.
I am quite pleased with and appreciative for this forum and those who run it.
ron
I'll post a couple of notes about what I think so far. BTW, when I say "you", I mean mods on this board in general, not you personally remi ;)
Here goes:
Basically, it's good that the mods keep this forum tidy. The thing is they overdo it.
- it's hard to criticise mod's decisions: mods always hide behind the statement that "If you don't like the way things are done, you can stop posting". That's not the reason behind your decision, that's merely the representation of the rules.
- unbalanced decisions: you close an entire thread because 1 or 2 members go off-topic and cause it to derail. How would you feel if you were fined everytime for jaywalking? True, it would cause you to cross the street consciously but I doubt every one of you always does this, unless you are robots. Besides, you need to keep in mind that you also punish all other users of that thread who have remained on topic for the mistakes of 1 or 2 members.
- Sometimes a thread has to go off-topic by this much for mods to close it. Closing a thread not only kills the derailment, it also kills the original discussion of that thread.
A slight derailment and one immediately reads a mod saying the thread is closed because it has gone off-topic. I very much get the idea that this forum is being ruled with an iron fist.
- Besides, there are other ways to fight off-topicness than to close entire threads. Anyone ever heard of deleting OT posts?
I've been in several forums and this is seriously the most strictly ruled of them all, even though the theme of this forum (talking about graphics) is not so serious to warrant such strict control. So IMO the forum standards are not well balanced.
I'd expect standards that you guys use in moderating this forum to apply to a forum that is about race, politics or religion, not about graphics. If you rule this forum with an iron fist, you will scare off new users.
Remi, as you've started this thread I'll repost my opinion here;
the forums should be joined together (for example - all adobe software into adobe forum) - when a visitor sees a "busy" forum it persuades a visitor to post. If you put some food in different dishes in different places it won't be the same as if you put everything in one big yummy looking dish :)
If you have 4 posts a day in 6 forums - it looks barren. If you have 24 posts in one forum it looks busy and appeal to people post more (no many want to post if there are no previous posts).
That's the main and most important thing that should be changed, in my opinion.
I'll just completely disagree with Availor. I don't want fewer forums just to have more traffic per forum, I like the forums to have a subject/theme of some sort.
I have never gone looking at individual forums for traffic, my visits almost always start with looking at 'New Posts'.
Please keep things as they are!
Paul
Alien, I'm never sure threads like this achieve what they set out to do. We have no constitution, just a rough set of posting rules.
You state that this forum is the most strictly ruled of all the forums you visit. I can't argue with that, but is it a bad point? Moderators remove Spam and Flaming possibly before it's ever seen by members. Spam does become a constant irritation and in many forums has meant the introduction of these terrible "Please replicate the text on the right" requests on every posting (Can't remember the term for them). So far due to our worldwide moderation this hasn't become a necessity.
Normally threads are locked because they tend towards flaming. They are very rarely locked for being off-topic. A simple "Please remain on topic" post suffices. I doubt if 0.5% of threads within this forum are commented on, let alone locked. Also please rest assured that the moderators do communicate via PM's to discuss / decide on a course of action and therefore it's rarely one moderators decision.
The comments are very valuable so far. Thank you for that.
I would say in some cases we (the moderators) are very consistent, in other cases more tolerant with the enforcement of the forum rules. It depends on the case:
We immediately
- delete Spam and
- close Requests for freebies
We try to solve all other problems with comments in the involved thread or with PM's.
As Egg said, we discuss questionable threads in the background (we have a private forum and also use PM's).
I see it the same way, that it's a great pity if threads are closed. And it is true that this is unfair to the users, which are not involved in Off-Topic or flaming discussions. On the other hand it's sometimes necessary to close threads which are out of control.
Unfortunately, it's a well-known phenomenon that one will find much more extreme statements in Internet forums than in normal conversations. It has to do with the reduced inhibition threshold in (nearly) anonymous internet forums.
Another interesting phenomenon in forums is, that comments from other members are much more frequently misinterpreted. Often it depends on the current mood how we (the members) see a text. If we are frantically busy or if we're angry, one is more inclined to interpret negativity in the comments. But if we are in balance or lighthearted, we see the comments in a more positive light.
I agree with what has been said about more tolerance.
On second thoughts I would also like to see a short comment, whenever a thread is closed. But I'm not sure whether it's always possible to post a warning, before a thread is closed. But you must consider, that this is my personal view. Maybe we (the moderators) need to discuss this further.
Remi
I'd like to add a note about the moderators and where they come from. Really just a FYI for anyone who might have wondered.
The moderator team are all members of the forum community interested more in interaction with other members than 'administration'. None of us want to be Police or 'enforcers'. We were asked to be moderators mostly because we were already hanging out at the forums lots. Another factor is by being somewhat distributed in different parts of the world we have a better chance of some moderator being online at anytime of the day. When a moderator has said they are unable to participate due to work, family, or whatever we have tended to replace them by asking someone else to help out. Generally there are far more potential candidates than are needed to fill any openings in the moderator crew.
Regards, Ross
Hi Egg,
I agree with you that the mods prevent flame wars and fight spam (personally I haven't noticed a spam post for weeks to months). I think you're very efficient at doing this and it's not a bad point at all.
My point is that in doing so, other users can't continue their discussion because their thread was closed in the process. This is what I find inefficient. It's like using a rocket to kill an ant, if you will :D
BTW, I was typing things fast and by "off-topic" I also meant flame wars, spam and everything else that's not relevant to the thread/forum.
IMO, one of the few reasons to close threads should be if the thread starter was starting an irrelevant discussion (e.g. a spammer or a troll). If the thread's topic is initially on-topic and it derails, it should only be closed if it continues to be abused after deletions of OT posts (spam/flaming/other nonsense OT stuff) and warnings to abusive users. Otherwise we're losing a perfectly good discussion that was messed up by a few rogue users.
To sum up my point: I think that mods do a good job at keeping this place clean, but that in this process, they "damage" efforts of the community to hold a relevant discussion. These actions can be seen by some users as destructive and have a bad effect on the attractivity of this forum.
I think that's the pertinent point. TG is a comfortable place because of the contributors and the moderators do a good job, in my opinion, by doing just that - moderating rather than policing. TG is not a confrontational forum: alongside the helpful and purely instructional threads, there are threads where disagreements occur and it can get passionate, which is good - often instructive when relative merits of programs are the topic for instance - as long as there's no personal abuse, and one idiot poster should not mean the loss of that thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alien
I also agree with Remi about misunderstandings. I used to dislike emoticons but find myself using them a lot now because I'm aware my sense of humour may not translate well in blank text :p :rolleyes: ;) :cool: :D
I totally agree with Paul's comment.
P.S. I think since the "Off Topic's" forum started it's proved to be a friendly place to ask questions that are non-graphic related.Quote:
Originally Posted by pauland
Basically, we posters are guests in Xara's abode. The forum moderators welcome us in and hold the microphone. There are certain standards of behavior that are expected.
I think that the forum participants are friendly and helpful. They also kid around a bit, and occasionally, someone may take something personally that's not meant to be offensive. Sometimes, a guest arrives at the party and acts a bit inappropriately, and a moderator will take him aside and say, "now see here, laddy. We're happy to have you here but we expect you to behave."
If you attend a family Christmas gathering at your uncle's house, and he finds you in a darkened side room with some other people he barely knows and you're sharing a joint, he may ask you to leave and lock the room so other guests don't go there.
If the ambiance does not suit, it is best to go elsewhere. If Bob's-Your-Uncle has house rules you don't feel comfortable with, you should make other Christmas arrangements.
I, for one, enjoy myself here, learn a lot, participate a little, and have enjoyed a bit of good-natured ribbing over the several years I have been a guest here. However, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
:)
Regards,
Alan
Until a week or so ago I wouldn't have had an opinion on this topic but what happened with this thread - http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=31645 - was inappropriate, heavy-handed and probably put a new user off for life. By the time it was closed, the heat had gone out of the argument and discussion was civil and constructive. Mind you, at no time did I feel that anyone got beyond frustrated in their posts - there was no name calling or abuse, as far as I recall.
The guy who started it had issues and when I tried to start another thread, in the hope of actually helping this guy get past his problems, and to sort some other things our in my head, that was quickly locked as well, ostensibly because I used the expression "potentially obnoxious" to describe the originator of the closed thread. If saying that someone's behaviour might possibly be seen by others as "obnoxious", i.e. a factual observation, is cause to close a thread, I think this place has severe moderation problems.
Worse still, and this is a general observation of internet forums, is that moderators are incapable of making a bad decision, despite any amount of evidence that they have done so. It is pathetic and demonstrates to me a lack of confidence in their ability, in the way criticism is stifled. If you think you've made a good decision, you should welcome the opportunity to discuss it openly. i.e. To have the courage of your convictions. Moreover, the ability to be swayed by reasonable argument and admit a mistake.
I spend very little time here because I find these forums very stale and lightweight. I come here with specific questions, when they arise, but I don't find this the kind of place that is likely to teach me anything really worthwhile because its all too fluffy and nice. No-one pushes any boundaries or really challenges anything, its all too antiseptic. A little bit of chaos makes for the enticing possibility that something good and fresh may emerge at some point. This place doesn't really do any of that.
I've looked though the thread. Heavy-handed to close it down? I would probably agree, but we're all human.Quote:
Originally Posted by BONES
I think that the reasons why you find TG a bit stifling are the same reasons why so many of us enjoy it. While there are many forums more reminiscent of a free for all, there are few places like TG where everyone gets respect and excesses and bad language are frowned upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by BONES
I like it that way.
Paul
I like it the way it is.
Open a third thread Bones [as was suggested] - there's no rule against it
The real discussion can go on - its as easy as that ;)
Hi Bones,
I'm glad that you've added your views, and I think there are some interesting points to discuss.
I cannot speak for sledger, but as I said before, the reactions in a forum are dependent on the current mood (how we interprete a thread). The moderators are not only humans too ;), we are also different personalities and this is great in my eyes.
You have argued that the moderators in some internet forums were incapable to reconsider their decisions. I know from some discussions in our "moderator forum", that we think self-critical about our own actions. And as you have seen in this thread, we are open for discussions. Maybe you're now also able to rethink your views. :p :)
I would say, some discussions are a little bit boring in the last time. But in my eyes one of the reasons for this is, that there are no interesting new features/updates from Xara for a long time. In my eyes, it's simply not worth to discuss well known features day after day and therefore the attractiveness of the forum is falling a little bit. I'm sure this will change, if we get some new functions/features to discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by BONES
In the end it's your own decision, if you want to visit a soccer game for watching football or if you want to visit such a game, in order to meet some hooligans after the game and start to create "a little bit chaos". But we have bad experiences with "hooligans", therefore we have a large sign reading "No hooligans please" in front of our forum. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BONES
btw: The above is only an example to illustrate the "boundaries". It's _not_ my intention to call you a "hooligan" or something like that (I'm far away from such a thinking, ok?) - personally, I'm open for controversy discussions, too. We just have to be careful, that these discussions don't get out of control. If we lay emphasis on a little bit more "enthusiasm" or more "substantive discussions", then I agree with you.
That's the way I see it.
:) Remi
I agree with the first part of BONES's post. Sledger's actions came across in a very negative way to me, as the thread had cleaned itself up. I say just delete the last post and reopen it, just so you don't come across like bullies in a playground, protecting your turf. Protect your turf, certainly, just not like bullies. Use the other tools in your workbelt--edit posts to remove offensive content, PM the originators and tell them that if they continue in that vein they will be banned, make posts that steer the topic into constructive avenues.
Before that post, another thread got closed on page 2 without any reason being given for doing so. At least that one was opened up again, after another mod concluded (rightfully) that there hadn't been a reason to close it. But unfortunately, that one degraded (probably because the mods weren't moderating) and it had to be closed again.
Actually, a while ago (over a year?) I tried to restart the valid portion of a topic in a closed thread, and I was told that I could be banned for questioning a moderator's decision, and doing what I did. That pissed me off, so once the heat had died, I pulled on the wound and reposted. The moderators showed that they were not as closed as the earlier statement made them out to be, and I got over it. But your statement is not in line with the moderators viewpoint--once something is closed, it stays closed, and there is to be no further discussion, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by handrawn
Overall, I give the moderators a 95% mark--pretty darn good. But when they do poorly, it really sticks out.
not aware of this last point David - comment from the moderators - think we need clarification on this?
good that it was ok in the end because banning reopening of a valid topic would amount to censorship - don't want that :(
Hi,
I'd like to address an issue I've discovered on my 2nd post to the forum. I'm a professional photographer (over 40 years now) who was recently introduced to Xara Xtreme 4 (long time user of Xara 3D).
I found a sample on one of the forums a week or more ago which someone had posted which allows the user to drag and drop photos onto a Xara file on the top and on the "reflection" - a very nice implementation of some of Xara's 4's new photo features.
I'm a long time user of a presentation slideshow program called XXXXX, in fact I have a dedicated website where I post samples and sell tutorials for XXXXX (I also write numerous free audio visual tutorials) which are available for download on the Wnsoft forum. I created a demo slideshow showing how the Xara creation could be used in a photo show and posted it on the XXXXX forum (XXXXX is the developer of XXXXX) along with a "plug" for Xara Xtreme 4 which I believe is a very nice tool.
I posted a link to the demo on the forum here only to find when I returned that two of your "moderators" had decided my link was somehow "spam". Rather than contacting me to ask, they simply accused me of spam because my website is part of my signature. There was no direct link to my website in my post but a link to a zipped executable slideshow posted on a folder on my site. Clicking on the link simply allows one to download the file and run the slideshow.
I'm quite insulted that I was accused of "spam" simply because my website link appears in my signature block. It's in my signature block on perhaps 20 or more photography sites and other places on the world-wide web.
If this is the kind of reception people get here on this forum with their posts removed and totally unfounded accusations, then I will gladly remove my post and stop promoting Xara Xtreme on other forums as well. Heavy handed action like this is unnecessary and if one must "walk on eggshells" on this forum then I want no part of it.
If this is an honest mistake, then I expect an apology from the two moderators. If not and this is de jure, the let me know and I'll not return...
Thanks,
Lin Evans
The thread in question is here: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...228#post261228
It's in the agreement you agreed to when you signed up to this forum: Do not join TalkGraphics.com to spam. This includes "I've just found this website…" posts, website links posing as feedback requests and other spam masquerading as useful information. If one of your first posts is plugging a website or product you will be banned. Please get involved with the community before you post links.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin Evans
Gary and Steve are not so-called "moderators" they ARE MODERATORS...
You have a total of FOUR posts at this forum --- THREE of them plug your interests (including this one).
Thanks for pointing your posts out -- the moderators were giving you the benefit of the doubt -- you didn't even care to follow up on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin Evans
You don't need to remove your posts -- I'll clean it up for for you.
Risto
TG is a forum run by it's members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin Evans
TG members do not run the Xara Company.