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Can I say how much I hate.. ?
.. The align dialog Box.
It should be a dockable panel, not a floating one and/or it should be available with other menu panels. I won't bother to ask for real time alignment guides..
..The lack of nested layers.
Examples courtesy of Flash 8..
OK, I feel better now..
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Overall, I like the functionality of the Alignment dialog, but...
I have two monitors side by side with my Xara window full-screen in the left monitor and all my galleries open in the right monitor, by default. There is one thing I hate over and above everything else about the Alignment toolbar. Let's say you launch it and leave it open. Then you launch or select another toolbar like a Bitmap or Layer Gallery which then sits on top of it. The Alignment toolbar button is now greyed out so you can no longer select it. But because the dialog is behind all of your other dialogs you don't know where it is. You have effectively lost it unless you close all other toolbars / galleries until you find the one it is behind. That sucks über bitter lemons in my book.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Do you really like the user interface of Flash compared to Xtreme's? If you had stated you liked Illy's instead of Xara's I might not replied and said "well everyone has their own opinions" and left it like that but when you have to work in such a small space due to the terrible user interface set up I have to strongly disaggree. When Xtreme came out with its dockable galleries etc. the first questions in this forum was how do we make them undockable.
Nested layers I would say is something that I would like but its not a the top of the list. The aligment tool works and it works easily and it can be brought to use with the press of 3 Keys so the only difference is that the operation of the aligment tool is that you have to use drop down boxes instead of a graphic button and if that is your complaint thats sad.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Albacore
Do you really like the user interface of Flash compared to Xtreme's? If you had stated you liked Illy's instead of Xara's I might not replied and said "well everyone has their own opinions" and left it like that but when you have to work in such a small space due to the terrible user interface set up I have to strongly disaggree. When Xtreme came out with its dockable galleries etc. the first questions in this forum was how do we make them undockable.
Well, I don't have AI; Flash has these features so it's easy to use them as an example. I think it's perfectly reasonable to illustrate a point using parts of the Flash interface - it doesn't mean make Xtreme the same as Flash. Where did you get that idea from?
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Nested layers I would say is something that I would like but its not a the top of the list.
I like to use Xara to build graphic assets and assemble them according to their use. If I'm making a web design, I might use one layer for individual assets, another layer as a web page background template, another layer as an alternative template, another layer to hold a populated page using Template 'A' as the layout, another layer shows the populated page using template 'B' as a layout in the background, etc.. As I go along I'm flipping between pages and assets and there is a natural hierarchy in my design. I might also have print designs sharing the same assets for the customer. Layers are a real irritation for me.
I'd like to be able to simulate my web pages just by turning on and off the visibility of a layer folder, rather than flip the visibility of many layers.
If Xara really got their act together we could have poor mans multi-page layout using nested layers.
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The aligment tool works and it works easily and it can be brought to use with the press of 3 Keys so the only difference is that the operation of the aligment tool is that you have to use drop down boxes instead of a graphic button and if that is your complaint thats sad.
Well maybe I am sad. Why am I looking for a lost dialog that loses visibility and requires me to click around drop downs and buttons, when I can have a docked panel that would always be visible (my choice) and can do the same with a single click. If that's sad, that's exactly what I am.
Paul
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
It's strange how different users have different preferences. I loathe docking panels or more accuratly floating panels that dock automatically. I don't want docked panels, never, ever, at anytime, so please don't have an auto dock! Or at least an option to toggle it on/off. You should see me rant and rave when my Bitmap Gallery suddenly devours half my work space. It's MY workspace you ****, who told you you could **** park yourself ***** there? etc
I prefer Xtremes single click operation to that of Flashs 2 click operation, but it's not something that bothers me greatly either way.
I've never used nested layers in Flash (Used nested library objects tho) and whilst it might be a nice feature, I personaly have never had a layer gallery that long that it needed nesting.
One of the features I think's great about Flash is the ability just to hold down the left mouse button & drag show/hide or lock/unlock layers. The ability to wire frame individual layers is great as well. But all in all Flashs user interface is a nightmare, with so many panels the workarea ends up the size of a postage stamp. Thank god for dual monitor displays.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
I'm very happy with Xara's alignment dialog. I find it much easier to read than all those little symbols.
The only complaint I have is the one I keep voicing: there's no option to align to selected object.
Perhaps the solution is to add an "advanced" extension to hold additional options, as in the Color Editor. For example, SWiSHmax allows you to align to the objects' anchors in addition to the standard positions. That could be useful. (The anchor position stays with the object until you specifically change it.)
Of course, SWiSH determines the object's position according to the anchor, no matter where it's placed. And you can't put the anchor just anywhere, as you can in Xara. The possible positions correspond to those in Xara's Origin Position control.
While I was thinking about whether a similar anchor/position/alignment approach would mitigate my problem with the bottom-left ruler origin, it occurred to me that an "anchor magnet" could help out the people who want to snap one part of an object to a particular part of another object. Since I'm not a programmer, I have no idea how feasible that is.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
I'm with egg on the docking panels, they are a pain in the **** as they dock whether you want them to or not so don't add the alignment menu, which is fine as it is by the way, to the list of stuff you don't dare move about the screen.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
NONE of my galleries dock anymore, not since this informative thread:
http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...hlight=docking
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
you guys are aware that if you hold the ctl key down while moving the panels, they won't dock....
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Bob thanks for searching that out. I need to disable the docking again. New larger hard drive with fresh installations of everything.
Glenn old habits are hard to break. I'd rather edit the registry so I have to hold the Ctrl key down to have it dock, which I never want it to do.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amoore
I'm very happy with Xara's alignment dialog. I find it much easier to read than all those little symbols.
I like how when you open the dialog, it remains open so that you can perform multiple operations, like if you want to align several groups of objects the same way.
In fact, if I have a peeve about the dialog itself, it's that it's not (yet) correctly implemented in the Linux version of Xara. That'll fix itself eventually, though.
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Originally Posted by
amoore
The only complaint I have is the one I keep voicing: there's no option to align to selected object.
I miss this option as well. My main use for Xara is creating graphical UI's for games, etc. The ability to align objects in this way (without the selected object moving) would make this a lot easier.
I used to use Microsoft Image Composer until I found Xara. One of the features of IC that I miss is the ability to lock the position of an object. You could still select it and edit it, just not change it's position. Of course you can simulate this by putting the object on it's own layer and locking the layer for edits, but it's not really the same.
The only thing that really bugs me about Xara is (as others have mentioned) the fact that the origin is the bottom left of everything. After I mock up a layout for a Gui using various objects, I have to break out the calculator and do a bunch of math to figure out where exactly everything is positioned. I understand the reasoning for a bottom left origin, but I still wish there was an option to invert it.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Albacore
The aligment tool works and ... ... you have to use drop down boxes instead of a graphic button and if that is your complaint thats sad.
No, NO, NO once again !!!!
You shouldn't use dropdown boxes at all !!!
Just try select several objects and Click / Ctrl+Click /Shift+Click on small window with shapes in Alignment dialog. And see what happens.
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2 pauland
It is not true that you don't like cats. You just can't cook them well :)
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
I don't hate the align dialog box,
but I would like have some keyboard shortcuts.
I find it a little awkward to have to step back through the dialogue when I want to align repetitively. Especially for aligning objects to center, which seems to be my most common alignment task.
- Andy
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Ah! Good to know Dmitry, Thanks
-AF
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
No, NO, NO once again !!!!
You shouldn't use dropdown boxes at all !!!
Just try select several objects and Click / Ctrl+Click /Shift+Click on small window with shapes in Alignment dialog. And see what happens.
Exactly my point Dmitry ~ One click alignment.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
There is this old thread: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...ment+shortcuts
The 4th post from Wfcentral has some shortcuts; I use them but I do get a bit muddled!
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Originally Posted by
Egg Bramhill
Exactly my point Dmitry ~ One click alignment.
Xtreme doesn't give you one- click alignment. Supposing I want three shapes aligned vertically. I need to select the shapes, choose the correct alignment from the dialog, then I have to click Apply.
If I want to align other shapes, the same way, it is single click, but if I want to change alignment I am looking at at least a pair of clicks again. That's all without consideration of losing the panel.
This compares with a single click of an icon/button no matter what alignment I want.
What am I misunderstanding here?
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Paul,
You need to select the shapes in either case. The single click is highlighting the very simple click on the window (Click top left to align all top left, click centre to align all centre, Shift click centre to align centraly vertical no change horizontal). Once you're happy with the alignment click Apply.
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What am I misunderstanding here?
You're not misunderstanding anything here, it's just your personal prefrence as I stated earlier. I find Xtremes dynamic window preferable and more intuitive (I rarely use the drop down boxes). I'm sure Xtreme could be programed like Flash to align on immeadiate selection but for novice users I think the Apply button is kinder.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
I'm sure Xtreme could be programed like Flash to align on immeadiate selection but for novice users I think the Apply button is kinder.
I disagree.
I think that the natural way to align stuff is to say, "See those things? Align them all with the left-hand edge of that shape there."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; the best align/distribute/resize tool that it's ever been my pleasure to use comes from a database form-design tool. For ease of use, no other method comes close.
Select objects, choose option, point to shape.
Job done. No mistakes. First time, every time. All stored inside a single fly-out button.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Now that I find that confusing Brian! There isn't even any conformity in the column/rows. Surely it should be like attached. Again to get top left alignment you need to click align left, align top. I'd prefer to click on the top left of the window etc.
It's horses for courses and it shows what difficulty creating user interfaces are.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Xtreme's alignment box works and it is simple.
I have no problems with it at all.
The only enhancement I would like to see in this tool is the ability to align, say, the bottom of one object with the top of another or the l/h side of one with the r/h side of another.
Preferably both :)
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
I think you can do that now but now with the alignment, but with using snap, Raymond.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sallybode
I think you can do that now but not with the alignment, but with using snap, Raymond.
I can? Thank you Sally , I'll have a look ...
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
Xtreme doesn't give you one- click alignment.
Unfortunatelly it's true... Corel's "C" is much better.
And there is no reason not to implement this.
I hope Xara Xtreme will have Customizable shortcuts in future.
P.S. Ctrl+Shift+L = Align Dialog
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Egg Bramhill
Now that I find that confusing Brian!
Well, the point is that there's only 9 options and they are all displayed when you are align/distibuting things. There's nothing to remember!
However, with Xara's method, all the options are hidden and there are no clues as to what the keyboard/mouse shortcuts are.
With Xara's method, first you have to remember the keyboard shortcut to get the Align/Distribute dialog on-screen. Or click through the menus to get Arrange | Alignment... (Newbie thinks: does this do 'Distribute' as well?)
Then, with the dialog on-screen, you try clicking around the place (with or without Ctrl and/or Shift) until one of them happens to do whatever it is that you wanted. Success! You breathe a sigh of relief and click again to apply and close the dialog box.
Or, (and this is hilarious!) you choose from drop-down menus and read(!) menus until you get to the one you want! I don't think I could make a more counter-intuitive system!
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There isn't even any conformity in the column/rows.
With so few buttons on display, and the icons on them being so clear, you don't really need/want some other person's idea of conformity forced upon you. I mean, should vertical alignment come above or below horizontal? Should it be left or right of the align functions? It doesn't matter!
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Surely it should be like attached.
Ok. If you like. To be honest, I didn't notice the change between yours and mine. The important thing is that all the functions are shown there whenever you need them.
Maybe I didn't make it quite clear: the 3 x 3 set of buttons are a fly-out which appears when you click on the toolbar button. You can then either click or slide the mouse to the function you want. When you let the mouse button up, your function is chosen and the fly-out disappears and you then click on the thing that you want your actions to be based upon.
There are no worries as to which item is the uppermost one or which was the drawn last or in which layer which may or may not be above another layer. You simply say -- as you do in your mind -- "Align this stuff with that."
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It's horses for courses and it shows what difficulty creating user interfaces are.
Yes, I agree that user interfaces can be a problem.
You only have to look at Xara's for the perfect example of how not to do it!
*
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Originally Posted by
brianlj
You only have to look at Xara's for the perfect example of how not to do it!
I disagree vehemently but I'm not about to waste any time arguing with you since you are clearly not interested in anybody else's opinion but your own. You have forgotten that it is merely your opinion, not an unassailable truth.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
I'm with Pauland and brianlj.
Xara is a very, very good app, but I find it really strange that its weaknesses are so strongly defended by so many.
And the alignment box is one of its rare weaknesses - in usability-wise.
3 points of objective thinking (instead of subjective) in this matter;
1. imagine a newbie using it for the first time -> lots of hits and misses, guessing, reading, waste of time and frustration. The dialog just does not self explain fast enough what you should do with it, or is very slow to use. And providing 2 methods in one dialog for one simple function just proves Xara wasn't sure how to do it. The fact that some diehard Xara users like it doesn't mean it's good. They just don't want the change so that they would have to learn the old stuff anew.
2. has any other app adopted Xara's alignment method -> No! If it was good some would have adopted it. Good stuff gets copied, as simple as that.
3. What is the most common way presenting alignment functions in applications in general? Those examples Pauland and brianlj just gave us (and similar). Why are they so widely used? Because most people understand them almost right away and because they are fast to use. It's good usability!
I think there is too much exaggerated fear in this community that improvement suggestions will spoil Xara, make it bloatware or make it like the others are. Surely there must be reasonable protection to keep it unique. One should be thinking the masses (of users), not just yourself. If you were able to use Xara productively until now, surely you will do so in the future even if some features were standardized and some murky corners were cleaned.
Now, this post may sound offensive, but it's not and for writing this I refuse to become an enemy. I have a high respect for all you diehards out there.
Ps. speed tip for those of you strugling with the align box; try using SHIFT or CONTROL while clicking the little "screen". That should speed you up. At the same time forget about the dropdown boxes. Just concentrate on using the little screen.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Originally Posted by
Big Frank
I have two monitors side by side with my Xara window full-screen in the left monitor and all my galleries open in the right monitor, by default.
I really hope that the "two-monitors-with-different-resolutions-bug" will be wiped out soon. I work on my Laptop often and it is very frustrating to have to use that same resolution (in height) when i connect it to a external 22" screen. That's what i hate the most about Xtreme.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
What about this; no dialogue box, but one (not nine) icons on the selector options bar.
It would be similar to or the same as the 'Select origin' icon on the selector bar.
The sequence would be;
1/ You would select your objects.
2/ Then click on the icon to choose which parts of the selected objects will be aligned (top edges, bottom edges, top and centre, Bottom and centre etc. or one of the corners)
3/ Then click anywhere on the screen or on an object in the selection, this last click is where everything will be aligned to.
If you click off (just outside) an edge of the document, the parts of the objects chosen will be aligned to that edge of the document.
The centre selection of the main icon can be selected at the same time as an edge (top and centre, left and centre etc.) or when selected alone would align centres both vertically and horizontally.
Perhaps the centre selector can toggle between aligning vertical, horizontal or both centres or maybe it would be simpler to have separate icons for aligning vertical and horizontal centres?
For distribution;
1/ Select objects.
2/ Click distribution extents on the main icon (left and right edges, top and bottom edges or top left and bottom left corners etc. or even opposite corners).
3/ Click in the document or in the selection for distribution to document or selection extents.
This might work, you would only choose opposite edges or corners for distribution, not alignment, so the same icon could work for both alignment and distribution.
Would adding a spacing profile (like the one in the blend tool) to this function be going to far?
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Does this make any more sense?
Damn! The last alignment in this file should be right edges and middle, DOH!
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Hmm.. it's losing something of the simplicity and the single click (after selection) that I suggested.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Personally, I have no problems with the alignment box. My only suggestion for improvement would be to have something on it that reminds us which function clicking performs vs. shift-clicking and ctl-clicking.
.joroho.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
Hmm.. it's losing something of the simplicity and the single click (after selection) that I suggested.
Well, when you think about it you have missed out a step/option in your suggestion Paul; whether to make the alignment/distribution within the selection, the document or the spread.
Granted you won't need to change this everytime, but you will still need to have the option.
I've given this some thought, nine icons and the three above options will be both messy and a tight fit in the space on the selector options bar, so you may well need another step of opening the dialogue/drop-down with these icons/options.
There is plenty of room to have the icon I'm proposing, and a spacing profile icon to boot, on the selector options bar permenantly.
I'm also proposing a system with a little more functionality (not just the spacing profile) for, pretty much, the same number of steps.
Say with the nine icon system you want all the objects to align to the left, everything will default to; the left edge of the page or the left edge of the selection, depending on which option you choose.
With the way I'm proposing, the left edges of your objects can be aligned to any point within the document that you click; the edge, inside a border, an object/group not in your selection, three-quarters of the way across the spread, whatever.
The last click will align and position the group, no need to align to one edge and then drag the group to the place you really want it.
Also if you click within the selection all the other objects will align their left edges to the left edge of the object you choose not the default left-most object.
And you will be able to distribute diagonally from corner to corner, not sure how much use that would be, but it's an option LOL!
I'm just kicking around ideas here.
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Originally Posted by
joroho
Personally, I have no problems with the alignment box. My only suggestion for improvement would be to have something on it that reminds us which function clicking performs vs. shift-clicking and ctl-clicking.
.joroho.
You still need the drop-downs for distribution and what I'm proposing will have all the options in the selector bar by default - no need to open any dialogue.
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Originally Posted by
MarkMyWords
With the way I'm proposing, the left edges of your objects can be aligned to any point within the document that you click; the edge, inside a border, an object/group not in your selection, three-quarters of the way across the spread, whatever.
With my proposal the last click will align and position the group.
Yep. You're describing exactly the way that 'my' fly-out tool already works.
What makes me (albeit only slightly) irritated is that this tool isn't even part of a dedicated graphics package -- it's in that part of a database program which allows you to design data-input forms!
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
This is an interesting discussion, folks!
Let me give you my perspective from inside the Xtreme dev team...
To summarise the discussion about alignment options so far:
* Pauland suggests shortcut buttons for the alignment options in a dockable panel (but I guess buttons on a normal button bar would be acceptable?)
* Amoore suggests a new feature: the ability to align to a specified object
* BrianLJ suggests shortcut buttons similar to Pauland but that they should be on something like a dropdown menu. He also suggests the new feature of aligning to an arbitrary point on the page. He further points out it should be called the "align/distribute dialog" - good point!
* MarkMyWords suggests another variation on shortcut buttons and again adds the new feature of aligning to arbitrary objects/positions. MarkMyWords also suggests another new feature: distribution using a profile curve.
The alignment dialog is a bit clunky but it does condense a lot of actions into a fairly simple dialog. Technically speaking, it lets you choose one of 189 different actions. If the suggested new features were added then the number of possible actions would be much greater but the dialog would still be able to present them concisely - so it has its uses.
However, in everyday use, there are some common alignment actions that we could provide shortcut buttons for while retaining the alignment dialog to cope with the less common cases and to satisfy those who like it or have got used to it.
The method of presenting the buttons is debatable but a simple set of buttons on a normal buttonbar would be simplest.
Align to point or object:
All the variations of this suggested new feature use a click on an alignment button and a subsequent click to indicate the anchor point/object but one of our UI guidelines is that we don't do "button-up-drags" where the next mouse click means something different than a normal mouse click. (That's one small facet of what makes Xtreme so intuitive to use.)
So we would have to find another way to designate which objects to move and which to anchor. The best way I can see to do that would be to have an "Align to this" submenu on the popup menu which would align the selection to the object you right-clicked on. The same submenu would be on the guidelines popup menu.
Distribution using a profile curve:
To do this properly, we'd have to allow for the objects to move on the drawing interactively as the profile curve is edited - in both X and Y. Makes it a bit more challenging!
Please don't construe any of this message to mean that Xara will or won't implement any of these ideas. But we are listening to everyone's suggestions and thinking about them.
Phil
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
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Originally Posted by
PhilM
* Pauland suggests shortcut buttons for the alignment options in a dockable panel (but I guess buttons on a normal button bar would be acceptable?)
Absolutely - I just want to press a button to align the currently selected items.
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The method of presenting the buttons is debatable but a simple set of buttons on a normal buttonbar would be simplest.
No problem with that.
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Align to point or object:
All the variations of this suggested new feature use a click on an alignment button and a subsequent click to indicate the anchor point/object but one of our UI guidelines is that we don't do "button-up-drags" where the next mouse click means something different than a normal mouse click. (That's one small facet of what makes Xtreme so intuitive to use.)
I have some software where the convention is to align to the last selected object. Of course, what that is in a group select, is interesting..
Thanks for the heads-up Phil.
Paul
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
O.K. slight re-think to keep within the rules.
My version for alignment;
1/Make selection.
2/Choose point of alignment; top edges, left edges, centre etc. (with however many icons you feel are needed) to make things clearer, this could create a guideline in the display showing where the default alignment within the selection would be.
3/To keep within the no 'button-up' drag rule, either accept the default as shown by the guideline or drag the line and release it at the point you want the selection to be (inside the selection or anywhere in the doc or spread)
The profile would actually only need to move in one plane at a time, I don't see any point in moving away from the alignment, the movement I suggest would affect distribution along the alignment or spacing within a distribution similar to the way it does in a blend. This is only an after thought I figured might be quite good, come to think of it I can't come up with a specific circumstance when this would be useful LOL!
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
I have some software where the convention is to align to the last selected object. Of course, what that is in a group select, is interesting..
That's another way to do it but it falls foul of our UI guidelines again(!) because it puts the program into a hidden mode where it's going to behave in a particular way that's not predictable just by looking at the screen.
Obviously that could be overcome by rendering some marker to show which is the anchor object/anchor point but for all sorts of reasons it's better not to get into little modes like that in the first place.
Fun, huh?
Phil
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Re: Can I say how much I hate.. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MarkMyWords
O.K. slight re-think to keep within the rules.
My version for alignment;
1/Make selection.
2/Choose point of alignment; top edges, left edges, centre etc. (with however many icons you feel are needed) to make things clearer, this could create a guideline in the display showing where the default alignment within the selection would be.
3/To keep within the no 'button-up' drag rule, either accept the default as shown by the guideline or drag the line and release it at the point you want the selection to be (inside the selection or anywhere in the doc or spread)
This is roughly the same situation as in my reply to Paul. It puts the program into a special little mode where there's an align action pending and certain types of clicks and drags will execute the action but others won't. That creates fiddly issues like how long does the pending state remain in force and providing an escape route if you decided you didn't want to do the align action after all. It makes the program a little bit less predictable and there's probably a better way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MarkMyWords
The profile would actually only need to move in one plane at a time, I don't see any point in moving away from the alignment, the movement I suggest would affect distribution along the alignment or spacing within a distribution similar to the way it does in a blend. This is only an after thought I figured might be quite good, come to think of it I can't come up with a specific circumstance when this would be useful LOL!
Profile distribution is a neat idea - consistent with other parts of the program like you say.
Re. distribution in X and Y: I was thinking that since the align dialog allows you to distribute in both X and Y at the same time, you'd want to be able to adjust the X profile interactively and, separately, the Y profile interactively.
Phil