If you want to nudge the size up you can click on the box then use your arrow keys...
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It would certainly seem that the two basic 'camps' on the 'perfect' U.I. are those who want less clutter, even if that means more mouse-clicks per operation, and those who want more options visible (ie: every font size or align and distribute option, for one click operations).
Having both available, to be set in user preferences, seems at first to be the answer, but then wouldn't loading all the options clutter the code with resultant slow-down?
It would seem some kind of 'modular' approach is the only way to satisfy all. That's easier said than done of course LOL! Maybe as the Linux version developes there will be add-ons for various options?
Of course 90% of these requests for U.I. additions/changes could be covered with an Actions palette. If implimented properly (similar to Photoshops or even better) this would allow user recordable actions, and present them as buttons, for almost every concievable operation.
Sadly that does sum up a large part of your posts, which tend to be lectures rather than concise points. I've been accused of exactly the same.
I don't know what era you live in, but programmers these days generally do as they told and may have a UI dictated to them..
That's all very well and good for you as an individual, but how do bad user interfaces affect the millions of people who have to use them every day? How many millions of hours per year are completely wasted, all because of the Programmers' Dictatorship? That affects you! It affects all of us.
I take no pleasure in using bad interfaces. Different interfaces is another matter. It's quite possible for one program to use a different way of doing things from another, especially in the list you gave.
About the 'nudge' : Yes, I get caught out like this too..
All the programs in the list have drawing features, it seems every type of program wants to be a drawing application :)Quote:
Different interfaces is another matter. It's quite possible for one program to use a different way of doing things from another, especially in the list you gave.
If you ask ten people what is the perfect interface you will receive ten different answers. Increase the number by 10, 100, 1000, etc.
We all seem to agree that interfaces are not perfect and things should be changed. The problem appears to get a concensus of what changes should be made.
Saying that the programmers are to blame doesn't solve the problem and if they are reading this may delay some resolution to the problem (only kidding).
Programmers work for their employer and work within the design parameters set forth for the project they are assigned. Changes to an established interface are often discussed almost endlessly in meetings. Often the changes may require changes to other modules within the overall program.
To say that a change should be minor and can be implemented easily isn't something that anyone can say without a thorough examination of the source code.
So, our discussion here may help us spend some free time and provide some feedback to the Xara Group Ltd. development staff. It is very obvious that no changes can be made overnight.
With the pending important announcement about a Xara product, we can only wait and hope for now. :)
Well, I have to disagree Bill. I don't think you will get 1,000 different answers from 1,000 different people about, for example, the alignment box in Xtreme.
I don't think there ARE 1,000 different ways of doing it!
You're making the problem out to be much bigger than it is! I only wanted a few really simple things changed: images that look like arrows changed into buttons (bigger buttons at that). This isn't rocket science. It's easy as pie. It's contained within Windows itself, just use the Windows standard interface buttons. The same goes for the buttons in the gallery dialogues: who decided to use a very small font like that, that looks nothing like the rest of Windows? What purpose does it serve? Surely it was MORE difficult to implement a non-standard font than to use the standard Windows ones? Who is using a 200 x 100 pixel display?
I can say it. How difficult do you think it is for the programmers of Xara to generate, for example, a dialogue box with some buttons in it? About as easy as pie! The user interface has parameters within the program, so all that is required is to change those parameters: i.e. if the code for an arrow makes it 4 pixels by 4 pixels, simply edit the code to make it 8 x 8 pixels. How difficult can that be? It's not as if this is difficult stuff.Quote:
To say that a change should be minor and can be implemented easily isn't something that anyone can say without a thorough examination of the source code.
The problems are down to design, not programming skills or the lack thereof.
I think you're fudging the issue with the idea that there can be more than three or four ways of presenting a given interface element. It's not as complicated as that.
As I said before in another thread, you are using an old piece of software (from 2004). :rolleyes:
DukeofThomas, it is obvious that your own opinions are very set and are also very important to you.
I am not trying to dissuade you from you opinions, only trying to point out that they are different from mine and other people.
Everyone has a right to have their own opinions. I cannot say yours are right or wrong, only different from mine.
Previously in another post you mentioned you do not have programming experience. I do have experience as a programmer (software developer to differentiate from other types of programming).
Even simple changes require a very thorough examination before they can be implemented in a functioning code base. They must be approved by many people involved with the project.
Design of an interface requires code to support it. Changes in that code requires integration into the other code within the same project.
You cannot change design independent of the code.
Yes, I know that.
Yes, but isn't it easy to change, for example, the colour of a button? Like, REALLY easy? The interface accepts input from the user. If the inputs are the same, but all we are changing is the interface, then I understand that you have to recode the interface (it doesn't happen by magic), but since the values that are being fed back to the program are the same, where is the big problem? If I want a set of up/down arrows moved to a different screen location, made bigger, their colour changed, etc. they still only send one value back to the program, 'up', or 'down'. Plus or minus. No change there. No need to integrate any of that with the already existing code. Only the interface part of the code has to be changed.Quote:
Design of an interface requires code to support it. Changes in that code requires integration into the other code within the same project.
Well, not the interface code, I agree.Quote:
You cannot change design independent of the code.
So, as I said before, keep cool and sit down with a cup of tea and create a nice drawing with Xara X1/Xtreme...
And please consider: This is a friendly forum and you are far away from being friendly...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well actually, you can call it a 'truth' by simply testing the two different options on a few thousand people who have never used either option before. Or ten thousand - the more the better. Then you'll find which option is the best. There IS a best way of doing things. It's the way that the MAJORITY of people want it to be done. That is 'normality'. It's highly unlikely to be the least efficient of the two methods. I also don't think for one minute that he was "clearly not interested in anybody else's opinion but (his) own"...
The attitudes visible on this board are exactly why we are still even having discussions about user interface design: some of the people who make the decisions on user interfaces are just like us - some think this way is best, some think that they should ask as many people as possible and find out WHY one method works better for the majority...
I'm quite cool, Remi...
The problem is that other people attribute what they think THEY would be feeling if they wrote things in as black and white a fashion as I do - I feel quite happy and am enjoying the discussion. If others can't face people disagreeing with them, then we may as well just silence all dissent and tell all programmers to quit trying to improve any programs that currently exist.
Did you see the 'Save' graphic that suggested I go away? How offensive was that? Yet nothing was said... It didn't bother me in the slightest. If I had done the same to any of your members, what would you have said about it?
btw: How is the weather in your country?
Because the code that makes the user interface is already contained in the Operating System. All you need to do is call it.
And because it's DESIGN, that's why.
Are you suggesting that the reason we have bad user interfaces is because it's difficult to program a good one, rather than to DESIGN a good one?
I know it's possible to put two arrows over here, then make them bigger, then make sure there's no 'dead space' between them. I know it's possible to make sliders bigger so they are easier to grab with your mouse. I know these things are easy because they are tiny amounts of static pixels, and my PC can shift millions of them when playing Painkiller, which is about a thousand times more advanced. I know it's easy because all of the things that need changing in the user interface are simply a matter of moving things to different locations, making things visible that are unnecessarily hidden, and changing the specific wording used. It's as simple as that. I also know how easy it is because I've used DOS programs that were fast and efficient, and then watched them get ported to Windows and become slow and awful to use, because of bad design, nothing else.
I wouldn't call my manager an idiot, but if a customer of mine couldn't use my website because I'd designed it badly, then I'd WANT him to call me an idiot, so I shift my butt and fix the problem. Some of us just aren't so touchy about these things... All I see is the interface, not who designed it. When I ask my friends about my website's design, they know they can tell me whatever they feel - what use is it asking them if they have to pretend it's great even when it isn't? That's a bit like the feeling I'm getting here: no criticism is allowed.Quote:
I know, what you're talking about by people who aren't easy to convinced. But I wouldn't call your manager a "idiot", like you do. You has to convince your manager and if you're not successful, you has to work on your argumentation (style). It's important for you, to learn something about this. Don't you think so?
If most people here are like me, they enjoy a debate and continual lectures prove tiresome. I'm here to learn new things and discuss with others - not get battered with someone's self-centered philosophy in post after post. It's getting to be a PIA to read the posts here.
The weather here is not so fine. It's raining a little bit and it's cold.
Mr. Duke, you've already made your 64th post on your very first day. I think we get the point and there is no need for further elaboration.
Discussion is good to a point. Right now I see 15 pages of this thread. I would suggest this is more than enough as it's lost it's relevance to the original topic... or any topic.
Time to brighten up this thread...
Now THAT'S funny :D
HaHaHaHa...I like that Bob.
Very appropriate at this point, reminding us all how big a clowns we are wasting so much time on discussion of an interface. :D
There are two solutions: don't read my posts. Or: lighten up and stop looking at it all personally. Look at it objectively - out there. It's a 'thing' - not you. The user interface is not a part of you, nor me. That's how I see it.
This thread only got out of hand when people kept making comments about things other than the interface itself.
"not get battered with someone's self-centered philosophy"
Do you seriously feel like this? Just from reading something on a webpage that isn't even about you?
Some fun grafx throughout this thread... as well some very informative grfx, all cool stuff :)
UI's are funny at the best of time... I also agree with having UI's deliver as much creative space as possible, and may you become proficient with utilizing your keyboard in one hand, and your mouse in the other :D
The end result, your art worx, will still be the same I hope ;) :)
It's the goodies, the options within said app, which becomes most important, given the UI is good on the space provision factor of things... and the user's own abilities, and artistic will to do, I would suppose...
Just open up Wings3D, and yikes... what a dismal looking UI eh... but man, talk about your powerhouse subdivision modeling app... the right set of options to compete with most any set of subd modeling tools, including the big boys...
Yup, options and hotkeys, large workspace's and the will to create... cool stuff really :cool: :)
Speaking of options... there are so many sets of tools out there to create with... why any be unhappy?
It's just so freaking cool to create stuff...
I mean sure, drop a suggestion off, then be cool... relax and do some art or something else you really like... share good space with others ... :cool: :)
peace to all :)
I think if you're going to talk about 3D subdivision modelling software with a dismal looking UI, you should probably mention Blender. ;)
Actually, I had last week off and spent it learning how to use blender some. Today I tried to draw something in Xara and had a heck of a time trying to select some objects! Amazing how quickly the mind adapts to new things and ways of working. I find that interesting, as most people when discussing blender say things like "yes the UI is non-standard, but once you learn it you're tons more productive", and be darned if it isn't actually true!
I find the way that Xara works (keeping tools out of your way until you actually need/request them) the same way. After working with stuff like CorelDraw and Photoshop where half of your window is taken up with all of the "tools" you probably never need, Xara is a real exercise in economy for the UI.
Now all I need is for XaraX to use the A key to select/deselect all and the B key to toggle select mode, and I'm golden. ;)
Here is an interface that will daze and confuse ya. I love it.:cool:
Hi Mike. I like the ZBrush interface.
That reminds me I haven't re-installed since my last hard drive upgrade.
Hi Bill,
And you should, just exploring the interface and is an adventure.Quote:
I like the ZBrush interface.
Its getting easier with each new version.
Your gonna have to call 5th Element and get a new serial number, I have had 2 HD crashes, I had to call them both times.Quote:
That reminds me I haven't re-installed since my last hard drive upgrade.
We've had complaints about this thread. The community expects civil behavior from all its members. This thread unfortunately degraded, hence the complaints.
At this point the debate seems to have quieted. Lets move on...
I'm locking the thread.
Regards, Ross (moderator)