Sure. btw: What is your favorite vector graphics editor? Is there a better piece of software than Xara Xtreme out there?
Printable View
This is irrelevant to my discussion...
Saying Xara isn't perfect and all the other programs aren't either is just ridiculous! According to this logic, we should just accept every program as it is. Programs are precisely that - PROGRAMS. They can be CHANGED. They aren't hardware...
Are you able to develop such kinds of programs? I ask this, because there is a great Open Source development project and they need good developers. It's your chance to code a better solution and nice functions. You'll find the web site of this project here.
Unfortunately not. Does this mean nobody can ask for problems with it to be addressed?
There are simple problems that can easily be fixed. It's simply a matter of somebody spending a few hours on each part of the interface that needs fixing. It's as simple as changing this:
Align
to this:
Align: left Align: middle Align: right
etc.etc.
It's not hard to do.
No, I have no programming experience, but I can certainly recognise a good interface when I see one. User interface is REALLY easy to do well. Use the program, think "How can I make this easier to use?" and then get other people to use the program, give them different versions of the interface to try, then update it, and repeat until it works best for most people. Simple.
DukeofThomas everyone is free to express their opinion of the tools within Xara Xtreme.
Is there anything about Xara Xtreme or any of their products that you do like?
Top ~ Good design ~ Everythings available
Bottom ~ Everythings hidden ~ Bad design
Oh yea?
:d
Duke of Thomas, are you able to explain me the following: If you have no programming experience, how could it be, that you know, that programming a user interface is REALLY easy to do?
I know, what you're talking about by people who aren't easy to convinced. But I wouldn't call your manager a "idiot", like you do. You has to convince your manager and if you're not successful, you has to work on your argumentation (style). It's important for you, to learn something about this. Don't you think so?
Egg...Your example is WAY too funny. Maybe I'm strange, but I really prefer my work surface to be relatively uncluttered. Sometimes it takes an extreme example to really point out the inherent fallacy of an argument.
I actually like the Xara interface and the fact that the galleries stay hidden. And I close each one immediately after use.
---
Will
Yes Will,
That was my attempt at sarcasm.
I detest clutter - I loathe docking bars (at least docking bars that dock of their own free will) - I don't want palletes and galleies all over the screen - I want to draw - I want the biggest possible page area to draw in.
You got it Raymond!
Maybe you just need a bigger (or a second) monitor, Egg.
Paul,
Because I use Flash so much I upgraded from my one 21" to a dual monitor display. It's the only way to work comfortably in Flash.
Egg, I guess I wasn't too sympathetic at the start about the clutter - I'm definitely not now! Lucky you.
Your display width is a mere 25" wider than mine..
I have just upgraded from twin 15s to twin 19s. When you have used twin monitors for a while (I have for about 5 years) it is impossible to go back to a single setup. I have a 17" wide-screen laptop set at 1280 x 768 and it's still too small to use comfortably for any length of time because of the screen real estate I am used to. Twin 21s sounds like heaven!!!
Don't try to speak for other people. User interface IS really easy to do well - why do you say otherwise?
We are talking about SOFTware here, so it's very easy to change the implementation of the interface. Unfortunately, that requires the ability to think, and to empathise. Something a lot of programmers are incapable of. Oh, and the ability to admit you're wrong, and to try a new method.
Yes, but why is this like a religion with some of you? Can't you stand any criticism of 'your' program? It's a bit pathetic. How do you suggest it is improved, if nobody is allowed to criticise it?
I like X1's bevels, and that's about it. Nothing else about it, that I use, is any better than PhotoImpact. I don't like the design of the user interface, I don't like the obsessive use of drop down menus, which means thousands of unnecessary mouse clicks, and frustration, because you are unnecessarily having to pinpoint tiny parts of the screen to select things. The up/down and left/right arrows that are on the screen are absolutely minute, and terrible design. The lack of up/down arrows for zoom and border thickness are bad design. The alignment box is badly designed. All of these things are EASY to fix, but because it's almost a religion for some people, they won't be changed. In other words, the person who designed them lacked empathy for other people, and also can't stand being 'wrong', so can't admit their design isn't the best for the task at hand.
Like I said, user interface design is EASY, you only have to get it right ONCE, and that's it. Change it, try different things, show it to as many people as possible, listen to what they say, and improve it, until the maximum number of people find it the easiest and quickest to use.
D of T : Which programme do you think has an intuitive, user-friendly interface while giving complete control and 100% accurate editability?
So your argument is that because no other programme is perfect, we shouldn't criticise X1 or Xtreme?
It doesn't wash.
PhotoImpact has a better user interface (for me), but it isn't perfect. X1 and Xtreme have BIG problems in their user interface, and BAD design problems in their user interface. Why don't they make the up/down left/right arrows even smaller? How about one pixel by one pixel? So it's REALLY difficult to click on them? Why don't they put a game of Tetris inside the alignment box, so that every time you click on a drop down menu, you first have to play one round of Tetris before you can click on the option you want? Do you see what I'm getting at? There is a REASON they don't do this, but they HAVE partially done something like both of these things: they have made the up/down left/right arrows REALLY small (I've never seen any program use arrows so small, in a long time), which makes them MORE difficult to click on. That's a fact. They made the alignment box REALLY slow and cumbersome to use, for no reason at all. They aren't interested in changing these things (i.e. fixing them and improving the user experience). What a surprise! Those who design things badly also refuse to change them. If they had the mental ability to change things in the FIRST place, they wouldn't have designed them badly in the first place.
[I]Which programme do you think has an intuitive, user-friendly interface while giving complete control and 100% accurate editability[/I I thought this was a question?? Coming in late on this but I find Xtreme very usefull - yes it does have some hangups that I dont like but then thats life. So I'd re put the question and ask respectively - Which programme do you think has an intuitive, user-friendly interface while giving complete control and 100% accurate editability] regards Richard
In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages.
source: Wikipedia article about Trolls
source of the image: Wikipedia Image "Do not feed Trolls" by
Sam Fentress (traced to SVG by James Hales)
DukeofThomas, I back you up on 90% you said. The missing 10 is because I generally think Xara is awesome.
I don't think DoT has to come up with an example of the best UI in the world to prove his point. This isn't about such big things as world peace or even the best UI in the world. This is about one small thing - Xara's alingment panel.
And Tetris is a darn good reference to Xara's Align panel at the moment.
Well done, DoT!
No Remi,
DoT did too much work on this to be a troll. He is in it for real.
And doing UI's myself as my main job, I can see he is not bluffing.
Yes, I agree with Markku. DukeOfThomas may be pretty abrasive in the way he says things, but much of what he says is correct. Just so his ego doesn't get totally out of hand, I'd also say that much of what he's said has been said by others before, with little effect thus far...
He is intentionally trying to cause disruption, because of his BAD argumentation style. He don't know anything about the members of this forum here and talk rubbish about the people who are included in this discussion. It's one thing to talk about a feature or the lack of a feature, but it's another thing to argument against the community members here. But that's not my problem, it's HIS personally problem.
Regards,
Remi
Remi, can we back off from the personal stuff?
Paul
To be honest, those behaving like 'Trolls' are the ones attacking a poster simply for stating his opinion.
I'm surprised and disappointed at the childish response to a criticism (which after all is only one persons opinion), simply stating that you disagree with another posters opinion would be enough.
The constant posting of criticisms and 'wish lists' is not a direct attack on other posters here, it results from a combination of things. That may vary from each users specific needs to the influx of new users who find Xtreme useful, but want it to work in a more familiar way.
We know very well that there are reasons why Xtreme doesn't pack all the 'bells and whistles' of some other programs, and they are good reasons, but regular posters must settle themselves the the facts of life;
If (as is the stated intent of Xara) lots more people become new users, then there will be many more posts like those you seem to object to.
Perhaps a sticky with FAQs put by newcomers to Xtreme might help alleviate the problem?
Remi, DoT wasn't the first one being personal, so like Paul said, now is a good time to back off from being peronal.
This a long thread and I think Xara developers have now a pretty good idea what people think about the panel. I can't close this thread, but I don't think anything new will come to this anymore. It is just going to bad direction.
Now those are the words of someone who hasn't done user interface design in the real world. Getting concensus isn't easy and you are often taking people from a UI they are used to into something out of their comfort zone. People get used to bad interfaces - they learn how to use them over time.
Xara has an excellent UI but with many rough corners. It has a fanatic user base who value the conciseness of the UI. The only problem is that it's evolution is slow whilst some innovations are taking place elsewhere.
One thing I know, but am still trying to practice, is that people are far more receptive to an argument/propostion if views are presented politely and with respect for others views, even if I don't share them. Having respect for others views is as important as presenting your own view well - it's something I'm still working on.
Paul
I use many different programs during any given day. I find the difference in the various interfaces refreshing. I'm not stuck seeing the same alignment icons between the development environment, drawing application, icon editor, word processor, database, and spreadsheet programs.
It makes me know I'm not an automaton churning out code, graphics, documentation and data.
At least I think I'm not an automaton :)
It does exercise the few brain cells I have left :D
In what way was I speaking for you? I thought your line was foolish and I still do. Interface design is a career in and of itself and while some programmers in very small shops might do that job, they are probably the worst suited to do so. Finding an intuitive work flow in a complex software application is far from easy and a multitude of issues have to be contemplated in it's design. When a coder does UI they more often than not do it based on back end logic not user work flow. Simply having object oriented code that is easily swapped from this button to that is not UI design.
Good UI design comes from direct study of user habits and expectations while creating a consistent methodology throughout the applications so the user begins to anticipate the applications behavior just as the application attempts to anticipate the user.
As for the issue of this thread.... well I do think the alignment menu is clugey and should be changed. I'll not defend it for a second. Whether the menu is good or not, or the whole of xara needs a retooling or not has nothing to do with the line "UI design is easy", which is, in short, ignorant.
J
I really like X1 too. I like the way it's really quick to produce just the sort of images I want, EXCEPT for the editing afterwards, and some aspects of the interface design. I think it was great value for money, and is really fast too. There's plenty about it I like, otherwise I wouldn't use it! The bevels are perfect for my web design work, it's just a few minor problems with editing and interface that make my work much harder than it has to be. We have every right to complain about problems we have with any piece of software, if we've paid for it. If two of us disagree on something, the answer is very simple: give BOTH options in the software. That is, after all, what software is supposed to be about! But how many times do we see software that does exactly the opposite: you have one way of doing it, or not at all.
I did answer - I don't know of any program that's perfect. Again I ask - are you therefore suggesting that X1 and Xtreme cannot be criticised, nor improved upon?
Do you want more people to use the program or not? To increase the customer base, a very good way is to improve the interface. People who try the software on trial won't get even as far as I have, as I've paid for it and WANT to use it. People who are just trying it may come across the same problems I did and just say "I can't do this with this program, therefore I can't buy it". That's why I have no intention of buying Xtreme at the moment - I can't do what I want with it any more easily than on X1.
I apologise if my way of writing comes across as abrasive! You see, I am very slow to take offence, so what appears to me to be an acceptable discussion of facts may appear to others as me being pushy or know-it-all.
The only frustration I ever feel is when I am using somebody ELSE's idea of how a program should be designed and it hampers my workflow, or literally makes me waste hours of my life on unnecessary mouse clicks and keystrokes.
This comes down to what I have termed "The Programmers' Dictatorship".
Take Microsoft, for example. Let's say there is part of one of their program's interfaces that needlessly wastes the users' time, makes them press three buttons on the screen instead of one, makes the buttons hard to press because of their location and size (i.e. too small), etc.etc. Let's imagine that 30 MILLION people have to use this program every day, because their boss tells them to. Their company uses Microsoft software, and they have no option.
Let's say each time a user uses function 'X' that it takes them one second longer than if it had been designed properly in the first place, and that they use it 100 times a day.
That's 100 seconds, per person, per day.
That's 100 x 30 MILLION seconds of people's lives WASTED, every day. That equals 3 BILLION seconds, which is 50 MILLION minutes, or 833,333 HOURS, or 34,722 DAYS wasted every DAY. Now multiply that by all the other bad interfaces that needlessly slow the users down, all across the board, from all companies. We are talking about literally wasting hundreds of thousands of DAYS worth of time, every single day! That amounts, quite literally, to people's LIVES being wasted, clicking and pointing, typing and bowing down to the computer, which is meant to serve YOU, not the other way round.
I call it the "Programmers' Dictatorship" because a tiny minority of people are deciding what YOU have to go through every day, with regard to computer software. The worst thing is that they are, in the main, not in the least bit interested in improving your life, i.e. improving the interface, because THEY designed it, and THEY think they know best!
Dictatorships never last, because they are unnatural. In the animal world, it is unheard of (to my knowledge) to have one animal rule over thousands of others, and make them sacrifice their food, time, safety, etc. for him/her. The same goes for the "Programmers' Dictatorship" - it is unnatural, and counterproductive. The way to make programs work is to get as many people as possible to decide how they want them to work, and if they don't all agree, simply offer them two, three, or more ways of doing whatever it is they don't agree on. That's the wonders of software!!!
To elaborate a little more: I have spent the last six months designing, in my spare time, my e-commerce website, which will go on line very soon. It took me that long because I was constantly changing things and perfecting them until they looked as good as I can make them, but most importantly of all, I was constantly changing things so the CUSTOMER (i.e. the USER) will find the site as easy as is physically possible, to use. That means that the colour and size of every single word was checked, changed, adjusted, etc.etc. The layout was tweaked and moved until everything was as clear as possible. And most importantly, from the very BEGINNING, I asked everybody I know "Please have a look at my site, and tell me what problems you have. Tell me what parts aren't clear. Tell me what parts are in the wrong place, what bits you don't understand, tell me anything that you didn't like the look of, the colour of, the size of, etc." I got people to use the site right in front of me, so I could see where they clicked the mouse, what they looked at, how they did it, if they got stuck, etc.etc.
THAT is how you design a user interface. Ask the customer. The customer is always right.
I don't think any of the problems with X1's interface are necessary to its function, i.e. I don't find they help at all.
What specific parts of the interface do you think have to be different from the 'normal' way of doing it? (I'm genuinely interested as I've always been interested in user interface design. I've always found it easy and that's why bad interfaces bug me so much!)
Does the alignment box help anybody? The fly-out box mentioned by somebody else is by far the most obvious and quickest way of doing it. Too many people seem to have got used to doing things 'the Xara way' and seem to defend it with an almost religious fervour, even when it's impossible to argue that it's better than the 'normal' way.
The problems I've had with Xara's interface could be fixed in about ten minutes - they only involve changing the sizes of the 'nudge' arrows (is that what they're called?) so they are no longer minute(!), changing the fonts used in the Galleries' buttons (who decided on them? They are straight out of Windows 3.1 and are tiny on my display!), fixing the alignment box, adding up/down arrows to the zoom, border size and font size boxes, and a few other things. Basic, simple things that should have been there in the beginning.
(The up/down arrows for the font size is a major bugbear of mine- Word uses that wretched drop down menu too. What a masterpiece of design! You want to increase your font one point at a time, just to 'tweak' it? Well you can't! You have to type it in! No simple one click fix! You have to click once to open the drop down menu, then move the mouse accurately onto the size you want, then click on it. If the size you want isn't there, you have to type it in! Why not have a fly out box with every size from 1 to 150 on it, with no spaces in between? (i.e. no 'dead space', which is superfluous and counterproductive). Then you can just click once, the box opens, and you click once on the one you want, without having to scroll!)