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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
Sorry, I really don't want to offend anyone :) it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!
Well, I'm not and, as web design is the arse-end of graphic art, I don't want to have to learn some whole new application just to keep my band's website up to date and looking fresh. That's why PageMill still works perfectly for my needs and I have never felt the need to upgrade to something more powerful or modern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
Then there's 2) *Implementation*: Which is implement a layout in HTML/CSS that encapsulates the previously (graphically) drafted layout and design, with possibly added functionality.
Which is boring and it's great that something like Xara can take the tedium out of it for us, don't you think? Simplifying "implementation" for us artists is very liberating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JokeArtist
I wish Xara would listen to us users and stop making toys which are not very useful to the professional graphics community at large and get some decent developers working on their core big money product.
Sorry pal, but I am a professional graphic artist and I am 100% happy with the development of Xara since I first bought v2.0 almost 10 years ago. I have all the tools I need to get on with the job and do the best work of my career. Sure, there are things I don;t use every day, PDF export and the like, but when I need some of that, it's great that I don't need to go to another application to do it.
Anyhoo, personalities aside, I might be in the minority but I love the fact that Xtreme is a jack of all trades. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it is the Master of Jacks of All Trades, which gives us the best of both worlds. 6 or 7 years ago I had a dozen or more graphics applications on my system for various things but as more and more stuff has been added to Xara, I've been able to cull things considerably. Today, I only have Xtreme and Combustion installed and they fill every possible need I might have, from trimming/cropping images through all manner of motion graphics and GUI design to websites and even producing finished art for album covers. I can do Flash, I can do animated GIFs, I can do anything my heart [or my client] desires, all without having to flip from one thing to another, using multiple formats, creating intermediate files and taking way too long. It's brilliant!
I imagine that Web Designer is supposed to introduce people to Xara, in the hope of enticing them to trade up to Xtreme, so I imagine all the goodies from Web Designer will be included in the next version. I sure hope so anyway, because I'm not going to bother with some template-driven web designer when I already have something far more flexible in Xtreme 4, even without the new features.
The other area I would hope to see worked on is the speed of the engine, as I still have trouble with very complex drawings that holds me back far more than any perceived lack of tools. I also wonder how representative the people active on the forum here are?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
What's your problem with the speed of the engine Bones. Are you saying there are faster engines out there or just that you want the fastest engine to become even faster?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
One thing some of you are failing to realize in a perceived purist slant is that if you want truly great innovations in following upgrades, sales have to be there and brisk. Although I was charmed by Xara Xtreme and all it's siblings, it was the web design aspect that pushed me to purchase X4 and hence put a few more dollars in the development till. I am happy with my business website that I designed with X4, in fact rather proud. I don't design for others and so don't have a professional bias. I don't want to have to buy another program if X5 emulates most of XWD's functions and improvements. I'll upgrade to that instead. Just remember the more money Xara & Magix makes by attracting more users, professional and otherwise, the better the end program will be. Perhaps to make some of you happy, they should offer a secondary installation pertaining to web design so you don't have to clutter up your workspace with functionality you neither want nor need.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Metro I can see how a customised installation of the product as suite would make sense to some users.
I recall from the JASC PaintShopPro days that you had all the options to choose whether you wanted AnimationShop and it's support files installed, even Tubes and Frames were an option.
It's a sound idea.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Egg Bramhill
What's your problem with the speed of the engine Bones. Are you saying there are faster engines out there or just that you want the fastest engine to become even faster?
I dunno about other engines, I only know that sometimes I have to wait a minute or so for Xara to complete a series of nudges, which is incredibly frustrating when you are trying to get things done. e.g. nudge a simple shape like a filled circle left x 5, up x 3 and it takes ages. I've tried putting the complex bits of the drawing on a separate layer and switching it off but that doesn't help. It's when I use really complex things like hand-made boiler-plate with thousands of vertices and stuff like that.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BONES
e.g. nudge a simple shape like a filled circle left x 5, up x 3 and it takes ages.
That is definitely not the expected behavior BONES. Something is wrong for sure.
Could you supply a .xar file with a simple filled shape that exhibits this behavior for you please?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Being HTML challenged I can only say BRAVO! for Xara Web Designer!
I started doing website design with Dreamweaver which I consider clunky and very slow. Then I progressed through 4 graphical webdesign software packages which all lacked various abilities.
Xara Web Designer looks like my dream software for creating small websites. Xara Xtreme is still the king for graphics design. They should both stand separate yet work together fluidly since Xtreme can do some things Web Designer can't.
I predict that Web Designer will become Xara's earnings champ within a few years. And with a few interations/versions of Web designer in the near future plus third party, graphically designed plugin forms, charts, chatboards and databases, etc.. XWD could become the defacto standard for future web development - personal and business. Sorry HTML enthusiasts.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
EyesOpen
I predict that Web Designer will become Xara's earnings champ within a few years.
Yes, I think it will.
Quote:
XWD could become the defacto standard for future web development - personal and business. Sorry HTML enthusiasts.
It's not so much that HTML enthusiasts are enthusiasts for the sake of it, but that the way that XWD uses HTML has very definite advantages (precise layout) but also limitations (liquid layouts and concatenated text would be the tip of that iceberg); consequently, taking nothing away from XWD, it will have severe problems penetrating high-end websites, but will do well at the lower-end of the market where such limitations aren't so noticeable or monetary considerations take precedence.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Hmm, i've looked into the source coude web designer produces and it looks very clean indeed. That alone would be worth for me buying WD.
Question: Is it worth waiting for Xara5 to get the same features??
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
Question: Is it worth waiting for Xara5 to get the same features??
For the answer/s to this question, please see here ;)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
Hmm, i've looked into the source coude web designer produces and it looks very clean indeed. That alone would be worth for me buying WD.
By all accounts it is very clean and uses a subset of HTML features very well.
Quote:
Question: Is it worth waiting for Xara5 to get the same features??
Are you sure Xtreme 5 will have all those features?
When will Xtreme 5 be released?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
> Is it worth waiting for Xara5 to get the same features?? <
This was more of a hypothetical question to see what you guys think :)
In the past, Xtreme eventually got the best features of the entire Xara product universe... It doesn't mean they will continue to do that but there is a high chance Xtreme will get features of WD (at least the spellcheck! PLEASE!!)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
This was more of a hypothetical question to see what you guys think :)
We're on page 10 of a thread which is doing just that. Have you read from the start?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Obviously there's no new information on what X5 will contain. I thought someone would have dropped more clues by now.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
Obviously there's no new information on what X5 will contain. I thought someone would have dropped more clues by now.
Well, we know they never give information before a release because it might
tip competitors off. ;)
But If I buy XWD5 and all the functionality is in XX5 I can always give
it to my nephew, together with my extra copy of X3D, he got a laptop for his birthday last month.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
Obviously there's no new information on what X5 will contain.
Neither is there any old information... Only speculation..
All part of the excitement yes ;)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I have come to this discussion rather late in the day, mainly out of curiosity, as XWD isn't high on my shopping list.
Only one question, perhaps Xhris is able to answer - what, assuming you win your bet, would you be able to buy with your 10 imaginary TG currency units? ;)
Edit: Whilst I'm on the subject, it might be helpful to know the exchange rate between imaginary TG currency units and Altairian dollars.
Saludos,
Bob.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Just wanted to toss in my $.02 on the matter as a former programmer, an IT Consultant, and a web designer/coder...
I like creating very clean sites from html and css. I don't use tables for my structure. I keep all the styling seperated from the content when possible. I try to avoid excessive script, try to keep my code huiman-readable, and even rank fairly well for certain things because my sites are coded to be search engine friendly as well.
So what is the problem?
Well, I can get great results but I'm always playing with browser compatibility to get the page to look the same across multiple apps. Fine...but sometimes, you can't even get there and you have to accept a compromise that keeps the design together enough in all the broswers to be ok.
But it can take some time to get these things right - to demo them for a client - to make changes on the fly and not have to diddle with CSS pixels, div heights, padding, margins, or any of the other tedious stuff that comes with hand coding.
My job as an IT consultant is to find the best tools for each job, whether those tools are to be used by the client or by me. There is a place in my world for sites that a quicker and easier to get together, which allows me to more easily fit into tighter budgets. If I don't need dynamic content or certain other DB interactions, I don't use a CMS. If I don't need some of the things that html/css allow me to do and Xara will fit the bill, then I'll use Xara.
This is a tool, folks. We all own lots of them. Getting the best bang for the buck in our toolbox and being able to size jobs properly according to a CLIENT'S needs is my goal. And in a lot of cases, if I can justify using XWD instead of hand-coding (no matter how a sick techie part of me might sometimes feel about it), then I'm going to use it. The speed and flexibility along with the ability to focus on what I want the page to look like rather than how to fiddle and hack it into place is going to be worth a bunch of billable time and hopefully a better lead generator as the guy who can "pull off really different designs and has them done quickly". This is what a lot of the small local businesses here are looking for - not 6 month timelines and $10,000 websites.
Hope that adds something!
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
slavelle
This is a tool, folks.
You were doing so well up until this point. 90% of forum users, when asked, would describe Xara as a religion.. ;-)
Good post.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Paul, not a religion; an addiction. :D
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Yes, a tool. :)
I've been watching in amazement how John (Covoxer) has been answering user inquiries regarding adding functionality, with various javascript snippits of code. It is clear to me not only his impressive coding skills but also that Xara-WD can be a very powerful tool in the hands of an expert...
It seems there is a tendency for experienced professional web-coders to dismiss Xara-WD without ever really exploring the flexibility in it provides. Clearly it is a useful tool for those of us with no aptitude for coding but, as Covoxer has shown, it can also be a platform that advanced coders can also use.
I think that in time we will see more skilled web-coders discover the flexibility & benefits Xara-WD offers and get on-board. We will likely continue to see some folks poo-poo the program as not "professional" enough. (Maybe Xara need a $1239 version for those folks -- identical in every way except the price :rolleyes:). Ultimately "to each his own". Those of us who like the tool can enjoy using it and those who think there's something better for them can dismiss us.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Well said, Ross. I couldn't agree more.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I think the "Hard coders" are worried about loosing part of there livlihood, as if the average small company sees the Xtreme Web Designer, they might opt for that and do theere own site, rather than pay some one.
Jim
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Yes Ross you've hit the nail on the head there.
John seems to be enjoying the challenges that members have provided by finding ways to make things work for them.
It's rare to find such individuals - thank you John.
@Scotty: Very pertinent point
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Charles should give John (Covoxer) a raise! Or at least Charles should use Xtreme to make John an 'Employee of the Month' certificate. :D
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I gave XWD a reasonable spin last night and it occurs to me that there is one very good reason why Xara shouldn't continue enhancing web features in extreme - workflow.
The Xara developers have built a highly-targeted application where everything relates to web development and consequently everything fits together really well - great job Xara.
With Xtreme trying to be a jack-of-all-trades it loses out on that focus and consequently I don't think web development will ever be as good in Xtreme as it is in XWD. Navigating around XWD is very easy and everything is related to the web.
The software is a pleasure to use (though it's not perfect).
If anyone using Xtreme is wishing for the XWD features to be put into Xtreme, at least check out how much better a targetted workflow is by downloading the trial.
As an Xtreme user, please leave the HTML capabilities where they are and just concentrate on XWD for that kind of thing.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
Yes, a tool. :)
I've been watching in amazement how John (Covoxer) has been answering user inquiries regarding adding functionality, with various javascript snippits of code. It is clear to me not only his impressive coding skills but also that Xara-WD can be a very powerful tool in the hands of an expert...
Regards, Ross
I have to agree 100% with this. I own a lot of software ranging from $5000 plus to this $49 gem ($29). No other company has a person so helpful like John. Every time I post something related to coding...a reply is back from John in minutes. Absolutely amazing!. This attention and willingness to help from the developers is the main reason I recommend Xara products to others.
Also a big thank to many others on this list for being so helpful.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Hi Tom (Mr. Camolot217 :)) -- I suspect John (Covoxer) was a major force in the development of Xara-WD - so for him & Charles Moir its like they've had a baby together. :eek: (Gasp)
So when John stays up all night helping users, I think we can see him as the proud new daddy eager to share the experience. I think all the Xara development team have much to be proud of with Xara-WD. I sincerely think the marketing people at Xara have done a great job with this one too. They too should be very proud. I think Xara Xtreme was called the flagship product earlier in this thread -- I believe it won't be long until Xara-WD takes the crown.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
I think Xara Xtreme was called the flagship product earlier in this thread -- I believe it won't be long until Xara-WD takes the crown.
I think you're right. As a product it has a wider appeal than Xtreme and I think it will be the main revenue earner given a little time.
If I were a pessimist I'd suggest this is also a danger since XWD could come to the attention of rivals with big pockets that might like to be rid of a competitor.. (or take control of the young upstart). Early days yet.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
They will eventually add all of the XWD bells and whistles into XXP and develop/redevelop a few more tools and they will raise the version number and up the price ticket. I'm not complaining about the price, it's my design application of choice, but they've always done that (look how they've virtually put X3D into XXP) and they will continue to do it. IMHO anyway. And good for them. I've read on these forums for years people using features I have never touched (and possibly never will). It's great to know I have a tool that does so much. For XXP to succeed as the flagship it has to be all things to all men/women. It already is everything to me. I still use Photoshop CS3 for some things, but not much, and it's more out of familiarity than anything else. Don't ruin it, Xara guys. That'd make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry...
http://republiquecricket.files.wordp...hulk-smash.jpg
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Asume I know nothing on either subject of design or web development
I'm usually go about my business as a viewer and not a contributer to the forums but i had to register and ask what this comment means:
Bones stated: that Web design was the arse end of graphic design?
I'd love to hear what he meant by this - Maybe you were trying to say that your web designs were like the arse end of a graphic design - an afterthought, otherwise your comment would be a genralisation:D
Dave
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Hi Dave -- welcome to the Talkgraphic forums.
I think the 'arse' comment was retorical and reflects the fairly common view that website design requires less skill to do a reasonably professional job than is required for other graphic design specialties like, say, logo design or typography. Just as "desktop publishing" has come to imply skills that almost anyone can easily acquire, so to has "web design" become a 'anyone can do it' kind of thing.
Of course doing something well is never that easy and developing skills is important if one is to do any design activity well. What is true is there are very accessible tools for web design (and desktop publishing) that allow anyone so inclined to become "designers". There can often be detected some degree of contempt from "professional" designers for the amateurs. The reality is there really are few barriers for amateurs to be able to develop advanced skills. These forums frequently demonstrate that skills can be developed by anyone motivated to work at improving -- and there are no limits on what level of skills can be achieved. One of the most skilled artists to participate here was a 14-year old kid named Steve Newport. He was a sponge for absorbing techniques, pushed himself hard, and developed an enthusiasm for design & creativity. The boundries of pro and amateur can be blurry. Likewise the boundries between 'high' design and 'low' design aren't as crisp as many want to believe. The 'arse-end' isn't very far away from the 'money-maker'! :D
Please forgive me for rambling.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Hi Ross,
Thanks for the Welcome, point taken. I run a web development studio here in Australia and we have some very talented graphic designers / web developers. That comment hit a nerve here in our office.
I'll go back in hiding again.
Cheers
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
No - please don't hide. We need contributing folks of all backgrounds to keep this community vibrant. Please contribute where you can. We learn from each other. We inspire each other. We make friends.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Web design isn't a black art any more, some people have a vested interest in keeping it that way because it means that they can charge ridiculous fees for what are basically a very simple websites. The little one man band sparks or plumber needs a website... he goes to one man band web designer... gets a nice site at the right price... if the web guy uses XWD and doesn't practise black arts if he has any sense. How long to troll out a simple eight page site in XWD from scratch, four or five hours? Time is money, whichever way you look at it.
Hopefully X5 will be XWD on speed once John & Co have incorporated some of the suggestions that have been put forward.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caseydave
Bones stated: that Web design was the arse end of graphic design?
I'd love to hear what he meant by this - Maybe you were trying to say that your web designs were like the arse end of a graphic design - an afterthought, otherwise your comment would be a genralisation :D
Well until he comes out of hiding himself only he can answer that. I'm not going to try to work out what he meant. But as a long-standing and successful web designer myself I can only give you my take on it:
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...phicdesign.png
It's all graphic design. But I've often found that many traditional graphic designers sneer at web designers. I'm sure they have their reasons but I'm not going to explore that here. But I can tell you that I've rarely seen a competent web design created by a traditional web design company. Attractive, yes, maybe. But competent? No. Both encompass graphic design but there the similarity ends. In my experience traditional graphic designers are noobs where it comes to the fundamentals of competent web design. But, each to his own.
For me the bottom line isn't web design or graphic design or design per sé. It's talent over tools. XXP4 is by far the most comprehensive tool kit any desktop designer could ever wish for. Sure, there's room for a few more, and WD has some of them, and they will surely be incorporated into XXP4 sooner or later. But give MS Paint to Michelangelo and he will create a masterpiece. Give XXP4 to an IT Manager and he still won't design any better than my cat.
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...a/mcse_cat.jpg
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sledger
That is definitely not the expected behavior BONES. Something is wrong for sure.
Could you supply a .xar file with a simple filled shape that exhibits this behavior for you please?
I can supply dozens. But it's not on it's own, it's in a drawing where there might be another object with 8000 vertices. Things are ultra-snappy until you reach a certain point, beyond which everything falls in a heap. And we're talking 4Gb RAM and a 512Mb QuadroFX card, so it's unlikely to be a hardware limitation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Caseydave
Bones stated: that Web design was the arse end of graphic design?
I'd love to hear what he meant by this - Maybe you were trying to say that your web designs were like the arse end of a graphic design - an afterthought, otherwise your comment would be a genralisation:D
Just look at the web, it's full of utter rubbish. Even the good stuff is constrained by the environment. Flash is an excellent example - because of it's considerable limitations a whole look sprang up around it which was copied in other media for a while, until people got bored of it and moved on to something else. Meanwhile, Flash still doesn't do blend/transfer modes and web graphics still look like they did 10 or 12 years ago, only less compressed.
Find a website that looks as good as an average TV commercial. It doesn't exist. You can get away with murder on the web, thanks to bandwidth limitations enforcing compression on everything. Mind you, digital TV doesn't necessarily look a whole lot better but that just proves my point, really.
Every medium has its limitations and sometimes they can be quite inspiring for a designer but the problem with the web is that the limitations affect one's ability to do a good job most of the time. i.e. There are simply too many limitations for it not to affect the outcome.
In my experience, any idiot can do good work by web standards. It's just not that hard. Your people just need to get over it. How many of them have been doing it for more than 10 years? I'll bet it is just a foot in the door for all of them, especially the talented ones, and they'll all move on up when the opportunity arises.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Interesting point.
On support of it, there's a plenty of template based web tools. Most of them quite successfull. Have you ever seen popular template based DTP tools for example?
Of course, there is a way to create highly artistic sites, but the point is that generally accepted level for the web design is very low comparing to other medias.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
but the point is that generally accepted level for the web design is very low comparing to other medias.
That's why talented web designers stand out from the crowd. There's so much utter rubbish out there that when you see a bright, refreshing, intuitive, easy-to-navigate, simple-to-read design... you linger.
Quod erat demonstrandum. :D